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	<title>Comments on: why did Jesus die?</title>
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	<link>http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/</link>
	<description>living Ephesians 2:1-4 in Lexington KY</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-47</guid>
		<description>I agree with every thing you say.  That being the case, I must have simply been unclear in my post.  I do think that Christ's death was selfless and was a gift to us.  My main point however is that he died so that we could be transformed into a people that live with him (ie restoring the relationship he had with us in the garden).  This is opposed to simply saving us from hell while we go on living the way we want.  If this was the case, then Christians would simply become the set of people with a particular intellectual belief and there would be no transforming power in the Cross.  I hope this has clarified my position, I did not mean to suggest that God was entirely selfish in his motives, this could not be further from the truth.  I mainly wanted to point out the selfishness in our motives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with every thing you say.  That being the case, I must have simply been unclear in my post.  I do think that Christ&#8217;s death was selfless and was a gift to us.  My main point however is that he died so that we could be transformed into a people that live with him (ie restoring the relationship he had with us in the garden).  This is opposed to simply saving us from hell while we go on living the way we want.  If this was the case, then Christians would simply become the set of people with a particular intellectual belief and there would be no transforming power in the Cross.  I hope this has clarified my position, I did not mean to suggest that God was entirely selfish in his motives, this could not be further from the truth.  I mainly wanted to point out the selfishness in our motives.</p>
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		<title>By: j-dawg</title>
		<link>http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>j-dawg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>sir,

I respectfully disagree. I will begin by saying that I am with you insofar as you emphasize the importance of selflessness. I am not, however, in agreement as to what you said about why God came to save us. 

Christ tells us, of course, that 'he who would be first, must become servant to all'. In other words, the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven is the one who focuses outward with empathy toward others. This is the key to happiness on earth and life before death: absorption in something greater than ourselves--namely the kingdom of God. 

Yet to suggest that God's motive for saving us was ' more about Him getting what he wants out of us rather than us getting heaven out of him,' is in my opinion to misjudge the character of God. It's been quoted many times but seems appropriate: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Simply stated, this passage tells us why God died for us. In keeping with God's character, his death was in fact an act of selflessness, an act of love for us. A gift, not a means to an end for himself. From what you said in your blog, if I've understood it, you've asserted that, in a sense, that we are to hold God himself to a lower standard than ourselves. It is suggesting that God can be selfish while we must be selfless. When we perform an act of service for someone, do we calculate the utility of that action? Would we as Christians consider that an act of Love? No. So it is with Christ's death on the cross.

God's desire, in my opinion, was to be with us. He saw the beauty in us "while we were still sinners" and crafted the salvation plan so that we might regain the relationship that we had before the world was marred by sin. That is the way I see it: God loves us, and we respond in love with in our lives. is it possible to only be in it our ourselves? I believe so, yes. But mutual giving is also possible. Sinners were attracted to Christ in the gospels. With him, they felt acceptance, and they responded with acts of love and service (i.e. the woman washing his feet with her tears).  

That, to me, is the simple truth of our relationship with God. God, i believe, is not interested in what he can get out of us. He is interested in us. The way we respond to love is with our own love. That is how we become the hands and feet of jesus. Problems arise only when we begin to lose perspective of the primacy of that relationship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sir,</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree. I will begin by saying that I am with you insofar as you emphasize the importance of selflessness. I am not, however, in agreement as to what you said about why God came to save us. </p>
<p>Christ tells us, of course, that &#8216;he who would be first, must become servant to all&#8217;. In other words, the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven is the one who focuses outward with empathy toward others. This is the key to happiness on earth and life before death: absorption in something greater than ourselves&#8211;namely the kingdom of God. </p>
<p>Yet to suggest that God&#8217;s motive for saving us was &#8216; more about Him getting what he wants out of us rather than us getting heaven out of him,&#8217; is in my opinion to misjudge the character of God. It&#8217;s been quoted many times but seems appropriate: &#8220;For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.&#8221; Simply stated, this passage tells us why God died for us. In keeping with God&#8217;s character, his death was in fact an act of selflessness, an act of love for us. A gift, not a means to an end for himself. From what you said in your blog, if I&#8217;ve understood it, you&#8217;ve asserted that, in a sense, that we are to hold God himself to a lower standard than ourselves. It is suggesting that God can be selfish while we must be selfless. When we perform an act of service for someone, do we calculate the utility of that action? Would we as Christians consider that an act of Love? No. So it is with Christ&#8217;s death on the cross.</p>
<p>God&#8217;s desire, in my opinion, was to be with us. He saw the beauty in us &#8220;while we were still sinners&#8221; and crafted the salvation plan so that we might regain the relationship that we had before the world was marred by sin. That is the way I see it: God loves us, and we respond in love with in our lives. is it possible to only be in it our ourselves? I believe so, yes. But mutual giving is also possible. Sinners were attracted to Christ in the gospels. With him, they felt acceptance, and they responded with acts of love and service (i.e. the woman washing his feet with her tears).  </p>
<p>That, to me, is the simple truth of our relationship with God. God, i believe, is not interested in what he can get out of us. He is interested in us. The way we respond to love is with our own love. That is how we become the hands and feet of jesus. Problems arise only when we begin to lose perspective of the primacy of that relationship.</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Well we have to distinguish the purposive attributes of an action from the effective attributes.  For instance, the purpose of me giving you a gift is so that you might receive something that you need.  However, an effect of that action might be my own positive feelings.  Confusing these two attributes easily leads to &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism" rel="nofollow"&gt;emotivism&lt;/a&gt; in ethics.  So the purpose of Christ's death was to redeem for himself a people.  The effect of this may be that our deepest need is fulfilled.

Now, I admit that it does get a bit more sticky that this.  For one thing, God created us in such a way as to need him.  Therefore, he must also have a purpose in this, and surely it ties in with his purpose in sending Christ.  So I see your point.  However, I am simply trying to weed out the ideas that I see lived all around me such as "Christ died so I could feel good."  Even if people don't say things like this it is evident by the way they live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well we have to distinguish the purposive attributes of an action from the effective attributes.  For instance, the purpose of me giving you a gift is so that you might receive something that you need.  However, an effect of that action might be my own positive feelings.  Confusing these two attributes easily leads to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism" rel="nofollow">emotivism</a> in ethics.  So the purpose of Christ&#8217;s death was to redeem for himself a people.  The effect of this may be that our deepest need is fulfilled.</p>
<p>Now, I admit that it does get a bit more sticky that this.  For one thing, God created us in such a way as to need him.  Therefore, he must also have a purpose in this, and surely it ties in with his purpose in sending Christ.  So I see your point.  However, I am simply trying to weed out the ideas that I see lived all around me such as &#8220;Christ died so I could feel good.&#8221;  Even if people don&#8217;t say things like this it is evident by the way they live.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.exicarus.com/2007/06/20/why-did-jesus-die/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>This one gets into an issue which is hard to pin down... it makes a very good point, but on the other hand I think one could defensibly say that Jesus died to fulfill our desires if we assume that our deepest desire (maybe "need" would be better) is to be separated from ourselves for God. 

Even from the "christian hedonist" perspective, though, one does have to agree with the main point--that we aren't saved for convenience's sake but rather to give up everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This one gets into an issue which is hard to pin down&#8230; it makes a very good point, but on the other hand I think one could defensibly say that Jesus died to fulfill our desires if we assume that our deepest desire (maybe &#8220;need&#8221; would be better) is to be separated from ourselves for God. </p>
<p>Even from the &#8220;christian hedonist&#8221; perspective, though, one does have to agree with the main point&#8211;that we aren&#8217;t saved for convenience&#8217;s sake but rather to give up everything.</p>
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